The FORMERS podcast
A collection of conversations with former extremists.
Former participants in extremist groups are a valuable source for insights into why and how they got involved, what happened to them during their time as activists, and how and why they left extremism behind and tried to get a new foothold in other walks of life. This unique collection of interviews includes former leaders as well as rank-and-file members from a wide variety of extreme right movements in Europe and the USA.
The conversations are chaired by Professor Tore Bjørgo and Robert Örell.
A conversation between Robert Örell and Tore Bjørgo
In this podcast, Robert Örell and Tore Bjørgo present the podcast series and discuss why it is useful and important to hear the stories of former extremists.
Tore Bjørgo presents his work
Tore Bjørgo tells the story of his work with former extremists, and introducing several of the people who tell their stories in this podcast series.
A conversation with Arno Michaelis, USA
Tore Bjørgo speaks with Arno Michaelis, a founding member of what became the largest racist skinhead organization in the world, the Hammerskins Nation. He was also the lead singer of the race-metal band Centurion. Michaelis talks about how he grew up in an alcoholic household where emotional violence was the norm, and how he struggled with abuse and violent aggression but found a community of like-minded in the Nazi skinhead movement. He also shares his experiences of how caring for his child made him leave the Nazi movement, and how he gradually found a new foothold in society, engaged with the Life After Hate organization.
A conversation with Ivan Humble, United Kingdom
Ivan Humble, a former regional organiser for the English Defence League (EDL), joins Robert Örell in a conversation where he recounts his journey into and out of violent right-wing extremism. His unlikely friendship with a Muslim man who showed him kindness became a turning point in his life. Humble describes the long and painful process of reconnecting with his daughter and convince her and others that he had broken completely with the extremist movement.
A conversation with Esa Holappa, Finland
Esa Holappa, the founding leader of the Finnish chapter of the Nordic Resistance Movement (NMR), speaks with Robert Örell. Holappa shares his experiences of becoming a highly ideological National Socialist and later rejecting the ideology and breaking with the movement.
A conversation with Jimmy Marklund, Sweden
Robert Örell talks with Jimmy Marklund, a former regional leader in the Nordic Resistance Movement. Before he joined the movement, he had a successful professional career and a family – but lost everything when it became publicly known that he had become a Nazi activist. Marklund talks about his formative experiences and what brought him to break with the movement.
A conversation with Jeff Schoep, USA
Tore Bjørgo talks with Jeff Schoep, the former leader of the National Socialist Movement (NSM), a major American neo-Nazi group. Schoep shares his experiences of becoming the leader of this hate movement, and how he was “rehumanized” through his dialogues with the documentary filmmaker Deeyah Khan. He later broke with the Nazi movement and now devotes his life to working against Nazism and hate.
A conversation with Tom Olsen, Norway
Tom Olsen, a former member and leader of a violent neo-Nazi group in Norway, shares his experiences to Robert Örell of how he became a neo-Nazi activist, deeply involved in violence and terrorist plots. During a trip to South Africa to meet like minded people in the white racist Boer movement, he ended up disillusioned, robbed of all his money, and in a vulnerable situation. Unexpected kindness from a black man made a crack in his hateful worldview. During a stay in prison, he decided to break with the Nazi movement. Olsen reconnected with his parents who had never given up on him, and now works as a social worker.
A conversation with KK., Greece
Our guest in this episode is KK, a former member of the Greek neo-Nazi group Golden Dawn, and its even more extreme youth wing, the Blue Army. He recounts his experiences of how joining the group increased his anger and hatred, and how he felt empowered by belonging to the comradeship of the militant group. He became increasingly disillusioned with the group and started to have doubts about the ideology. With support from his family, he gradually disengaged from the extremist movement. Interviewer in this episode is Robert Örell.
A conversation with NN from The Netherlands
Robert Örell speaks with NN, a former member of a neo-Nazi group in the Netherlands. After having made some extreme right statements in his class, the strong negative responses from the school and other pupils pushed him to join the nationalist Dutch People's Union. When he studied to become a history teacher, he gradually got a more nuanced understanding of politics and society and eventually disengaged. Due to his extremist past, he was fired from his first jobs as a teacher but later got a teaching job where he could make use of his story. He is now involved in helping people out of extremist environments.
A conversation with NNN from The Netherlands
As a young man, he got involved with a neo-Nazi movement. From his early youth he had been attracted to uniforms, Nazi symbols and militant masculinity. A traumatic experience caused him to feel hatred and made him move towards extremism. He found a likeminded extreme right community to share his hatred with, mostly online. Establishing friendly relationships with people he previously hated helped him to leave extremism. However, to get rid of all his old ideas and thinking took many years. (Interviewer: Robert Örell)
A conversation with Matej Jurasek “Rarach”, Slovakia
Matej is a former member of a Slovak neo-Nazi hooligan group. He was attracted to the masculine style and the community of the violent hooligan scene. He enjoyed the feeling that he was dangerous, bad and strong. When he became involved in security work, his Nazi ties increasingly became a liability. Through the help of new good people in his life, he began a process of change. (Interviewer: Robert Örell)
A conversation with Ole Kristian B.
Ole Kristian joined a group of young boys and men for social reasons, later to find out that they were actually militant neo-Nazis. He soon adopted their extreme nationalist views and took part in their actions with vandalism and explosives. On his own, he set off a dynamite charge at a mosque in Oslo, causing some damage and bodily harm to a woman inside. When he was sentenced to five years in prison, he was unrepentant, but later he broke down and tried to take his own life. Still as he was serving his sentence, he publicly distanced himself from Nazism and eventually started to visit schools and youth clubs to warn young people against racism and extremism. After finishing his prison term, he got an education and was able to build a solid professional career. However, his past still haunts him, especially when he applies for a new job. Google never forgets. (Interviewer: Robert Örell)
This conversation is in Norwegian and Swedish.
A conversation with Eirik Stokke
At school, Eirik dressed a bit differently than others. Due to his military-style jacket, other pupils started bully him and calling him a Nazi – although he did not quite know what that was at the time. Still, he got in contact with others who used similar clothes, and soon got involved with a militant extreme right group, Viking, adopting their racist views. Due to his love for heavy metal music, he became the lead singer of a white power band, “Sønner av Norge” (Sons of Norway), and wrote some very racist lyrics for his band. He and his friends also got involved in many fights with anti-racist opponents, which he found thrilling and fun. Due to his extremist behaviour, he was kicked out of school. However, “I went from being nobody to being somebody, and in the band, being the lead singer, I was the focal point.” After several years, he gradually left the extreme right milieu but still held the ideology for some time. However, his racist stereotypes were challenged by positive encounters with friendly immigrants and anti-racists, and he gradually left these views behind. As an adult, he picked up on education again and studied to become a high school teacher. (Interviewer: Robert Örell)
This conversation is in Norwegian and Swedish.
A conversation with Carl
Carl grew up in a large family in Sweden. His brother was a non-political skinhead but that connected him to the skinhead movement and White Power music. He eventually was recruited into the National Socialist Front and became actively involved with the scene. Along with his group of friends, they got into violent confrontations with anti-racist, which reinforced their bonding. He became deeply engaged, even standing as a candidate for “Svenskarnas Parti” (The Party of the Swedes). As he got convicted of a non-political crime, he pulled out of politics. He had also increasing doubts about his ideological views and eventually did not believe in the nationalist and ethnic ideas anymore.
This conversation is in Swedish.
A conversation with Peter
Peter grew up in a racist family in Sweden. Along with his elder brother, they bonded with like-minded youths at school and gradually became more organised. Anti-racist theme days at school, obviously directed at his group, backfired and pushed him further into the movement. Activism filled all his waking hours, handing out flyers and fighting opponents. He felt important and successful in their activities – but gradually he became disillusioned, feeling that the violence was meaningless, and the activism led nowhere. The violent lifestyle became increasingly disgusting and he started to leave the scene, even if he still had the ideology. It wasn’t primarily an ideological change that made him leave, but rather the violent character of the group. He got in contact with an old police officer, establishing a trustful relationship, and by talking with him he started to phase out his own ideological assumptions. It was a step-by-step process to find a new identity and foothold in life. He now has a good family life and works as an assistant nurse, trying to help other people.
This conversation is in Swedish.
This podcast series is part of the FORMERS Dataset.
Regulations for secondary use of the interviews
If you want to use the interviews as data for research, please see here regarding regulations and how to cite. All the interviews are available for researchers and students as transcribed text files in English, available by application. Podcast audios (including cuts) can only be reused for other purposes after specific permission from C-REX and the interviewees.
Bios:
Tore Bjørgo is professor at the University of Oslo and former Director at the Center for Research on Extremism: The Extreme Right, Hate Crime and Political Violence (C‑REX). His research has covered a broad range of topics, often in combinations: political violence/terrorism, racism/right-wing extremism, de-radicalisation and disengagement, criminal gangs and subcultures, crime prevention/counter-terrorism, policing. The main recurring theme has been violent extremism and terrorism in general, and right-wing extremism in particular, with a focus on prevention. He is widely recognized as a pioneer in the study of de-radicalisation and disengagement from extremist groups. He established the very first Exit project in Norway in 1997, a model that inspired similar Exit projects in Sweden and many other countries in the years to come.
Robert Örell is a leading expert in the rehabilitation and reintegration of violent extremists, with over 20 years of experience in the field and more than 15 years dedicated to direct interventions. As director of Exit Sweden for a decade and program director of Exit USA for three years, Robert provided strategic leadership to pioneering exit programs. He served on the steering committee of the European Commission’s Radicalisation Awareness Network (RAN), co-chairing its exit and rehabilitation working group from 2011 to 2024. Currently, Robert advises governments and organisations on establishing exit programs, capacity building, and policy development in the P/CVE field. Robert co-teaches the academic course “Psychology of Violence and Hate,” focusing on radicalisation and violent extremism. He contributed to the Council of Europe’s counter-terrorism strategy (2020–2021) and was a featured speaker at TEDx Vilnius in 2016. Robert holds a Master’s in Humanitarian Action and Peacebuilding, with additional studies in psychotherapy, social pedagogy, and terrorism studies.