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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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We're going to.

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Yeah.

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Even hearing his name.

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Oh, I'm sorry.

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Welcome to my talk now for those who have been waiting for that.

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Welcome everyone.

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I'd like to say that we're very pleased to have Dr. Karen O'Brien with us today.

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This is our third talk in the PSI Climate Series this semester.

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Let me just tell you a little bit about Dr. O'Brien.

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She's a professor in the Department of Sociology and Human Geography.

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She's an internationally recognized expert on climate change and society with a focus

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on themes of climate change impacts, vulnerability, and adaptation.

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She's currently leading an Norwegian Research Council project called Adaptation Connects,

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which stands for, let's see if I get this right, combining all the new knowledge to

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enable conscious transformation to sustainability.

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She has served as a lead author for the IPCC Fifth Assessment Reports and participated,

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I believe, in several other ones in addition to that over the years.

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She's been on the Future Earth Transition Team and Science Committee for between 2012

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and 2017.

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She's author of a number of books, most recently a book entitled You Matter More Than You Think,

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a new book called System Social Change for a Thriving World in 2021, and also Climate

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Change in Society, Transforming the Future and Adaptive Challenge of Climate Change in

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2015.

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In addition to all that, she's co-founder and partner of an Oslo-based company called

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C-Change, which is dedicated to helping both individuals and organizations in developing

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a new perspective and gaining more knowledge about transformations to sustainability.

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Without further ado, her title of her talk will be Climate Change and Transformations

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to Sustainability, You Matter More Than You Think.

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Dr. Ramanan.

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Great.

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Thank you.

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Thank you for coming today.

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And I want to, as mentioned, talk about really the climate challenge and how we meet it right

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here and right now.

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I've been working for about 35 years or so on climate change and climate change impacts

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vulnerability and adaptation, what it means for human security, what it means for ecosystems,

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et cetera.

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And it becomes very clear that we are at a moment where we actually have to transform

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ourselves and our societies at a rate, scale, speed and depth that has never been done before.

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So it's a real pleasure to be here and talking to people in psychology who are working with

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climate change, because I think that is the adaptive challenge that we need to understand.

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And I'm going to go through a little bit on.

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Let's see.

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It worked before.

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I'm going to just give a little introduction so we're all on that same page of what the

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crisis is that we're facing and then talk a little bit about my research and then go

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into a framework I've been using over the last 15 years or so called the three spheres

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of transformation and how we can apply that to scaling transformations, which puts people

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as the solutions rather than just technologies and behavioral changes, et cetera.

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So I just want to acknowledge that this is really climate change.

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We're in the decade that matters.

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And some of the artwork that I show you will be from this book, You Matter More Than You

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Think, which was a collaboration with Norwegian artist Tone Bjørdan.

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So all of this is from this decade matters.

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And it really recognizes that if we listen to the science and if we trust what science

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is saying that we actually do not have a long time to sit there and try to respond.

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We have to do things differently.

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We have to think differently.

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We have to act differently.

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We have to literally be different.

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And when we read the newspapers every single day, these times we see the unprecedented

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environmental extreme events such as wildfires, catastrophes all over the world.

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20 years ago, people would think like, oh, this is about Bangladesh.

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This is about the Pacific Islands.

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But it really is about everywhere.

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And we're seeing that complacency is really eroding everywhere.

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As we see even countries like Norway are vulnerable to climate change.

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We also see a widening gap in the global population between the rich and the poor and who's vulnerable.

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So there's a social justice dimension to climate change and how we respond to it.

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I think that's really important.

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Likewise, we can't separate climate change from biodiversity loss and many of the other

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environmental challenges and the 17 sustainable development goals that we have today.

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We failed to meet any of the targets for biodiversity in 2020.

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And in December, the countries of the world came together, put up the global biodiversity

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framework, which is very ambitious and also very voluntary.

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So we really do need to actually link them.

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And I think that's one of the positive things is that people are starting to see that climate

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change and biodiversity have to go together.

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But we're failing both with climate change and biodiversity loss.

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And I think that's a real concern.

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And it's not only that we're failing, but it's actually we're failing even worse because

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we're starting to see that other crises like the war in Ukraine is starting to, you know,

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is doing having counterintuitive consequences with raising the price of oil, making it more

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popular to invest in oil and continue the investments in this.

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So there's a lot of influences in the political economy in governance.

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They're facing this.

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But I think, you know, what it comes down to is the science of systems change.

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And many scientists who are most concerned about is this that the world is on the brink

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of what they call tipping points, climate tipping points where we will go to irreversible

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impacts because of changes in the Greenland ice sheet, the drying of the Amazon forest,

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changes in ocean circulations, etc.

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And basically they're saying that with one point one degrees global heating, which we've

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already experienced now, five dangerous tipping points may be passed.

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So this is really frightening.

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This is really like this is the idea that we are in this crisis.

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And I think many of the people in this room already are very aware of it.

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But I think, you know, how do we actually put that into this context?

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And there's been for the last 75 years an iconic clock called the Doomsday Clock.

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And it was part it came out in the Cold War, but maybe about 15 years ago, they added climate

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change into that.

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And last year, January 20th, they set the Doomsday Clock to 100 seconds to midnight.

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And they said without swift and focused action, truly catastrophic events, events that could

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end civilization as we know it are more likely.

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When the clock stands at 100 seconds to midnight, we are all threatened.

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The moment is both perilous and unsustainable.

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And the time to act is now.

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And I should just say, I was born in the Cold War.

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And when I was born, it was 12 minutes to midnight.

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When I started studying climate change in 1988, it was six minutes to midnight.

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And this was last year before the war in Ukraine.

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And this year, they put it at 90 seconds to midnight.

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So this is really unprecedented danger.

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And something that we haven't really embodied and taken into, you know, I think that, you

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know, business as usual, life as usual kind of goes on.

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But how do we actually grasp the things?

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And many people we were talking about, you know, people are starting to feel very disempowered,

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feeling like, oh, you know, deep adaptation.

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We have to accept society's collapse.

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We have to kind of do this.

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And we start to see that there's a whole new literature on climate anxiety, climate grief,

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climate trauma, a whole new typology of trauma that we have never seen before, because it

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isn't just the effects of climate change that are traumatizing.

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That it's the whole phenomenon that is traumatizing us.

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So how do we actually handle this in society?

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And I know that many of you are working with mental health issues and climate change among

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young people, but also among all of society.

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How do we address these types of challenges?

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And that brings me to research at the University.

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And I'm interested in research, but I'm also interested in practice.

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So I'll move into that, because I think research as usual isn't going to be enough when we're

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in the decade that matters.

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And that means we have to actually think about how do we have that difference?

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And so this is the first line of my most recent article on practical approaches to

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scaling transformations.

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And it really is like, what do we do now?

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How many of you saw the movie Don't Look Up?

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Yeah, many of us are like, don't look up.

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It's like, oh, you know, we do look up and we do wonder, you know, how can we do this?

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And I also looked up and was like, oh, how, you know, what is it that we can do?

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We often feel very small.

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We often feel very like ineffective in terms of making changes that will go to scale.

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And many of us, I think, really feel like, do I actually matter?

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Does my research matter?

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Does my food choices matter?

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Is anything that I'm doing really mattering?

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And I think that that's where we need to ask very different questions.

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And the questions that I've been very interested in, in my own research over the last decade

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or 15 years or so, is how do we transform at the scope, scale, speed and depth that is called for

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to meet the SDGs and the Paris Agreement?

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And it's not whether we can do it, because that, you know, you get yes, no, and you get all these

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different opinions, but how?

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How do we transform?

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And for that, we need an integrative approach.

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We need to have all the disciplines and all the knowledge coming together to work on that.

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But not just any transformations, OK?

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How do we do this in an ethical, equitable and sustainable manner?

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Because there's nothing worse than, you know, like having someone come in with their solution,

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geoengineering the atmosphere or whatever and saying, this is how we transform.

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So there's a quality of the transformations we're interested in.

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And that brings us to some real philosophical questions about what is the relationship between individual change,

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collective change and systems change?

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When I change, do we change?

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The sisters change. How do we see that?

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And my biggest question is this, you know, are we actually underestimating our individual and collective capacity

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for social change by being based on a paradigm, you know, our way of thinking where I separate myself from you,

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I separate myself from nature, you know, this atomistic reductionist deterministic view that has pervaded science and society.

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So this is very much like what I have been working on in the Adaptation Connects project,

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which you probably the first one who actually said what it stands for.

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Adaptation Connects is looking at the relationship between adaptation and transformation,

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recognizing that we can adapt to a one degree warmer world, a two degree warmer world, a three degree warmer world,

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and a four degree warmer world. Maybe, you know, there's limits, there's barriers and things.

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But the biggest adaptation that we can do right now is adapt to the very idea that we are transforming global systems and the climate system.

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And that, I think, is when we start to see that, we transform economic systems, political systems,

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we start to kind of switch that paradigm.

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So we know that we matter when it comes to our thriving and flying and things like that at a collective scale.

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But we haven't absorbed that we matter as we change as individuals and as collectives.

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So we're looking at conditions or we have been looking at the project is coming to a close,

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but how creativity, collaboration, empowerment, flexibility, especially of narratives,

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how all of these contribute to that capacity and potential for transformations.

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And there's been different projects, coffee connects, travel connects, education connects and art connects.

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And I won't go through that, but I just want to highlight some of the my PhD students work on it.

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And what we're really trying to do is move beyond this mechanistic paradigm where it's like leverage points.

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We need to heave ho, change the world, because what we're talking about is not just one problem, but many problems.

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It's climate change, it's biodiversity losses, freshwater use, the nitrogen and phosphorus cycles and so on.

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But it's also social equity, gender equality, health, food, water, et cetera.

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So we're trying to you know, we need the entry points for actually large scale systems change in a way that is different.

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And if we just keep thinking that we have to do, you know, leverage these changes without recognizing that we are the leverage points,

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you know, that that that we actually can make that difference.

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So so the work is really focused under the guise of adaptation focuses on the how of transformation from an integrative perspective.

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In other words, recognizing the social dimensions and the deeper human dimensions that are involved in this as far as systems.

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So one of my students was looking at an indigenous community in southwest Alaska and their relationship between individual and collective leadership,

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the simultaneous leadership of how what I do and what we do is one in the same.

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And that's been a beautiful example of how a community of 70 or 80 people is small but mighty.

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They've had an enormous impact on the Pebble Copper Mine, on salmon fishery.

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And they are really they're being looked at.

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You know, they're influencing indigenous groups all over the world with the work that they do.

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Likewise, another PhD student who's now at University of British Columbia was looking at shared meaning in the antithesis and how to are looking at adult development.

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How does meaning making differ even within communities and cooperatives of coffee producers in Guatemala?

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How does that connect to the whole global value change and how does that actually influence adaptation of coffee to climate change?

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Others have been, have been looking at embodied approaches, art, music, dance,

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you know, how do we get our effective bodies involved in this and her projects on climate odyssey in Portugal,

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you know, really engage people differently, not just as, you know, cognitive in your heads,

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but in their bodies and engaging in a kind of ongoing inquiry into climate change.

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Another student working with a values based, not a specialty coffee producer in Burundi,

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one of the poorest countries in the world where people were hesitating to even take care of coffee plants because they associated with the authoritarian government.

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There's no reason for them to. But when a company came in and really treated people with dignity, respect and everything,

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then suddenly it transformed those systems. So all of these, and, you know, going back to embodying relations, right, relations.

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It's not just with indigenous groups, but how do we create spaces, include self reflexivity, listen deeply and be in action in a different way.

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And I think all of these bring out different lessons on how the how of transformation.

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And in my own work, teaching climate change in an environment and society for undergraduate course here,

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we realized that we didn't actually have the textbook that we needed.

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And my longtime collaborator at Rutgers University, Robin Lashenko, teaches a very similar course, sometimes on the same days at the same time.

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So we wrote a textbook that really brought in beliefs, values, worldviews, emotions, all of these things that we think are really important.

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We published it in 2019 and it's already out of date.

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So we're working on the second edition now because now Greta Thunberg came up. Climate anxiety, climate grief have become such bigger issues.

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There's so much that have changed in three years and hundreds and thousands of new articles and things.

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So so the question then is like, wow, what is it that we you know, how do we actually have to keep up to date?

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And I think that goes for all of our teaching.

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You know, every new group that comes and starts at the university has been here and the bar is raised a lot for us.

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And for me, it's been it's really important.

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Also, many of the people who are using this book in their classrooms, they said we want more on transformations.

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Extend chapter 10, you know, bring it in early and things not just on the last day of the course or anything.

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So so we've learned a lot on that. And this book, You Matter More Than You Think, really was a inquiry that I opened up based on,

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you know, recognising that there is a quantum social science out there where the methods,

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the metaphors and the meanings of quantum physics are being used in international relations, in psychology, decision making,

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game theory, all sorts of things. And I just wanted to ask, OK, what would this mean for climate change?

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What does it mean to look at social change, not as this connected, you know, like is a very Newtonian things in the universe?

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But if we actually looked at ourselves as related and entangled, what would that mean for how we approach change?

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So all of this kind of just to sum up the research, I was currently a co-chair of the IFBES,

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which is the Intergovernmental Science Policy Panel on Biodiversity and Ecosystems Services, the Naturkanale in Norwegian.

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The governments of the world have asked for an assessment of transformative change.

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And so I'm meeting 100 authors on this and we're really digging into the how of transformation,

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but also the visions, the values, the barriers and obstacles and the actions.

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So it's really it's exciting because I think it really brings in the importance of actually taking climate change and biodiversity loss seriously,

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but more than that, taking transformation seriously.

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And that brings me then to three spheres of transformation.

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I'm just going to take a sip of water because I realize I talk like...

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And the three spheres of transformation is an approach that I started working on a number of years ago.

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I'll talk a little bit about the background when I talk about scaling,

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but recognizing that transformation refers to a physical and or qualitative change in form, structure and meaning making,

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is this idea that it's not just one thing.

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And it's exemplified in the metamorphosis of a caterpillar to a butterfly.

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It changes its form. It changes the structure in the cells breakdown and reform and everything.

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But it also changes meaning making because the butterfly sees a very different world than the caterpillar, if we can imagine that.

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And so so like how do we capture that, you know, that kind of the holistic approach to transformations?

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But transformations also has a more like intrinsic and deeper way.

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And Monica Sharma, who I've been working with on these three spheres of transformation over the last years,

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she talks about transformation as the powerful unleashing of human potential to commit, care and affect change for a better life.

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And I think this is something that many of us working in these issues recognize that, you know,

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we're at one point one degrees where, you know, we are where we're at in 2023, but we can do better.

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And I think many people realize that, you know, like there is a huge difference between one point five and one point eight and two degrees and three degrees and four degrees.

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And that everything we do now is actually going to have this, this have an impact on future generations, on current generations.

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So this idea of transformation as being something deeper is really important as well.

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So the three spheres of transformation that we work on are the common, the practical, political and personal.

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But I'm going to walk you through them because I think, you know, what I want to get across is these are all, you know, they're all connected.

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They're not three separate spheres. But again, I worked on these with Monica Sharma,

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who had been working in the United Nations on as the director of leadership and capacity development,

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figuring out how to scale out HIV AIDS treatments and women's health treatments all over the world.

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And I'll talk about how I approached her, but when I heard about her, I said, I have a problem in climate change and could I work with you?

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And I went and yeah, we've been working together since then.

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But the idea here is that the practical sphere, the bullseye, the center, this is where most of our attention is focused.

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It's on the behavioral changes, the technical response of everything that we can measure.

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And it's the one hundred and sixty nine targets of the sustainable development goals.

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It's the number of solar panels, the number of bicycles on the streets.

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It's, you know, it's everything that a number of girls in school, everything that we can actually say this, we need to change.

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And this is where probably ninety five percent of our energy is going into finding practical solutions that will give us measurable outcomes.

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And it's really important. But it's also, as I showed you in the beginning, we're failing.

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We have all these targets and goals and things like that. And we are not bending the curves.

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We are not actually meeting any of these things.

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And so what's wrong with something obviously doing more of the same and coming up with another, you know, the SDG 2040 targets and things like that isn't going to help.

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And that's often because we're ignoring the political sphere.

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And we call it political because it's it's how we organize society collectively.

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It's the systems and the structures. It's the social and cultural norms.

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It's the rules. It's the regulations, the incentives, the infrastructures, everything that is about, you know,

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how do we organize our society collectively to actually facilitate or hinder changes in the practical sphere?

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So it might be easy to say, like, oh, everyone should ride a bicycle.

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But when I go to visit my mother in Florida, there are no bike lanes.

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There's no infrastructure. It becomes very difficult without that enabling environment there.

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And in the political sphere, that's often where we get polarization.

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That's where we get, you know, like the conflicts where it takes us decades to get to a voluntary agreement to limit greenhouse gas emissions.

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And it's also where we get social movements. We get Fridays for Future, Extinction Rebellion, people who see other opportunities and want something different.

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So so the political sphere is extremely important, as we all know, because that is where the boundary conditions for social change will happen.

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But again, voluntary agreements aren't going to get us to bending any codes in the next 10 years.

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And we need to take into account the personal sphere and the personal sphere.

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We consider the individual and share the collective beliefs, values, worldviews and paradigms that actually influence how we see systems.

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What our goals are in the practical sphere, how we relate to each other.

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Do I see myself as having any influence on these systems or not?

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What is my, you know, like my my view of the world that I engage in?

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And I'll talk a little bit more about this because I think it's important also for psychology, because that is like your sphere of influence.

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But when I present this to climate scientists, they'll go, yes, yes, you're absolutely right, Karen.

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We need to change people's beliefs, values, worldviews and paradigms.

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They're like, oh, well, it's like, you know, it really is.

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You know, how many of you have ever tried to change someone else's beliefs?

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Yeah. It doesn't usually work too well or too well.

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I usually get pushed back and everything. And that is where, you know, instead of turning people into objects to be changed, we say, well, how do you actually get that?

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People, you know, subjects of change in their own life.

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And so you have self-determination theory and all sorts of things.

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There isn't everything in psychology.

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But the point that I really want to get across is that these three spheres are not separate.

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You know, they're not. Yes, I work in the personal sphere, I work in the political sphere, I work in the practical sphere.

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But they're all we always are.

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You know, there are dimensions of how we are, what we do, what we see.

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So every politician, every person working on energy infrastructure, et cetera, is seeing the world in a particular way.

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And I want to just go through a little bit of these.

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I don't know how many of you have heard of Danella Meadows' seminal paper on leverage points, places to intervene in a system.

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She was a systems thinker who was part of the Club of Rome and really brilliant.

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And this is something that she just at the end of a conference, she's like, these are the places to intervene in a system.

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And she said that, you know, the constants, parameters and numbers and the size of the buffer,

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the things that we give 99 percent of our attention to are often pushing systems in the wrong direction.

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And so, you know, just like that is whether it's in subsidies or tax rates or all these things that we spend hours debating is often like having very little impact.

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It's a much higher impact comes when we start to look at the systemic factors of the feedback loops, the flows, the information flows,

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the rules of the system and not the least the power to influence the rules of the system.

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So that has a lot more influence on everything else there.

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But what I'm interested in the work is this top one, the highest leverage points, which she calls the goals of the systems,

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the mindset or paradigm from which the system arises. And the highest one is the power to transcend paradigms.

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I was just laughing and saying, like, these are all our best beliefs on the future.

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And I think that where we're at right now in 2023, we should be working with the highest leverage points.

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And I think many people are actually in that. But ironically, as I said before, the whole idea of leverage points is very mechanistic.

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So to actually transcend that paradigm and then look at ourselves differently, it's it's very confusing.

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So I want to just look at the mindsets of paradigms from which the system arises as an entry point.

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And I think that beliefs is one of the first things that we can look at to say that, you know,

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often people are doing climate change, you're not believing climate change.

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You know, that's that has important implications. But a lot of it is to understand our relationship to the climate system.

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But do you believe you matter? Do you believe you can make a difference is equally important in terms of moving things forward.

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And the belief is an acceptance that something exists or is true, especially something without proof.

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Like our best bets on things and beliefs play important roles in perceiving a current situation like climate change and identifying appropriate actions.

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When I'm predicting the effects of those actions, our beliefs are really very visible.

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And the reason I stress this is because, you know, we read in the paper these things and studies.

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This was in 2017, a headline that said the planet has just a five percent chance of reaching the climate goal by the end of this century.

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The two degree climate goal, it was like a one percent chance for the one point five degrees.

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Yeah, that doesn't make you feel very optimistic about the future, you know, like, oh, my gosh, we can't, you know, like good luck and everything.

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But as a researcher, here's a way to get it.

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What's the research behind this?

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And if you actually look at the integrated assessment modelers and their assumptions and you go to the very end of the article,

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you see that their forecasting model does not explicitly incorporate future legislation that could change future emissions.

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It's based on past emissions, which is extrapolating the past into the future.

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We have also not accounted for the possibility that decreasing prices for alternative energy

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could cause us cause a sudden massive shift to alternative energy.

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That would be speculative.

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So in the name of not being speculative, they're actually cutting out a lot of possibility and potential.

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You know, they don't include cultural shifts in world views.

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They don't include Gettysburg and the Lope Lea and all the others who are actively engaged in, you know, climate meetings and things.

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And I think that that could be very dangerous.

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So when I ask climate scientists that, you know, off the record,

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I was like, can we limit, you know, we're telling everybody that we need to limit climate change to 1.5.

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Do we really believe it?

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And if I ask them, we're like, well, it's already too late.

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We should have started 30 years ago.

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We should have started, you know, like this is, you know, where, you know, yeah, look at the data.

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We're never going to be able to do it without carbon capture and storage and negative

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emissions, et cetera.

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And then there's so much like, no, no, no, no, no.

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People will never change.

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Their sample base might be very small, like their uncles or their cousin things.

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But like, oh, no, no, no, people, people never change.

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Some people will, you know, in a very like economic thing,

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say the payoff for renewables will never exceed fossil fuels.

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It's such a great hydrocarbons are so fantastic and we'll never get beyond that.

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Or some people say the model say it's impossible and the models are always right.

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If you look back at all the models in the future and things, everyone finds their evidence based.

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Some people just say, oh, it's all natural variability anyway.

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You know, the climate has always changed.

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20 million years ago, the place to see using thermal maximum, it was five degrees warmer.

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And then you remind them that that was over like 20,000 years rather than 100 years.

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The things but and some people say we can adapt to anything.

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No problem. You know, we're still here.

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Maybe, you know, some people will go away.

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But but there's also then some who say that, yes, of course we can.

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We can reverse global warming.

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And this is like the project drawdown approach where they look not just at,

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you know, 10, 20, 30 different solutions, but hundreds of solutions.

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And then when we start to think of people as solutions to climate change,

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we start to see other opportunities.

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And that brings us then to values, because I'm probably all of you are familiar

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with Shalom Schwartz's circumflex of values that, you know, like all values

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with different motivations, conservation, openness to change, self transcendent

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and self enhancement and values are so important because it's what matters to us,

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what we think of as important in particular contexts.

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And we start to see that in the political sphere, what we're finding is it's really

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value conflicts that we're facing, that, you know, like someone's idea of security

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and someone's idea of self direction are against each other.

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And when we and I'm going to talk a little bit about, you know, putting the three

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spheres into practice through values, because we, you know, like what is important

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and who decides whose values count on deciding the future?

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It's a hugely political question, but also very practical as well.

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And then we get to world views.

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You know, how do I see the world?

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And we kind of think that world views are very fixed in things,

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but they actually can change over time.

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And, you know, I have so many different dimensions, you know, ranging from who am I?

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What am I aware of? What's significant to me?

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What should I do? How should we interact?

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What do I need? You know, how do I feel?

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What's attractive to me?

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Also, where do I draw the line between us and other?

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And, you know, spiritually, what is of ultimate concern?

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And each of these together kind of gives each of us a particular vantage point

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on the world, a view of the world that may not be the same.

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And it may not be the same, which means you have a very big perspective.

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And some might really know their patch of land,

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their perspective.

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But the point I want to make is that each of us are looking at the world

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through particular lenses that have filters, that have blind spots.

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And that goes back to Danella Meadows,

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is like that, you know, that we all have these blind spots,

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that we're not seeing things.

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And for me, in my research, I'm very much interested in like,

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what will future generations, you know, sitting here at University of Oslo

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look back and go like, oh, they didn't see that, you know,

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they couldn't see that they were connected.

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They couldn't see they were in time.

415
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But oh, there was a relational term that they just ignored that.

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And, you know, so I want to see like, how can we look at our own blind spots?

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And that means we need to look at our own paradigms.

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And Meadows writes that, you know, paradigms are the sources of systems

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from them, from shared social agreements about the nature of realities,

420
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from systems, goals and information flows, feedback, stocks, flows

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and everything else about systems.

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So our shared patterns of thinking, how we know it's how we approach science,

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but it's also how we organize society.

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And right now, you know, we're still very much linked to an enlightenment

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worldview and a very mechanistic paradigm, atomistic, deterministic,

426
00:35:21,420 --> 00:35:24,780
reductionist, materialist paradigm that governs the world

427
00:35:24,780 --> 00:35:27,620
because it's been very successful in, you know, the

428
00:35:28,780 --> 00:35:31,460
the great acceleration that we've seen of

429
00:35:32,660 --> 00:35:35,260
in in terms of modernity, et cetera.

430
00:35:35,980 --> 00:35:40,100
But in this, we just draw a very like a line in the sand

431
00:35:40,100 --> 00:35:43,460
between me and you and us and others in society and the environment

432
00:35:43,460 --> 00:35:44,980
and humans and nature.

433
00:35:44,980 --> 00:35:48,380
So we're kind of like making this division between us

434
00:35:48,380 --> 00:35:52,460
because, you know, it's actually work, but it's also fragmented society.

435
00:35:52,660 --> 00:35:53,620
It's polarized.

436
00:35:53,620 --> 00:35:57,620
It's created a world where we don't see ourselves in others.

437
00:35:57,620 --> 00:36:00,220
We don't treat nature as if it's of any value.

438
00:36:00,500 --> 00:36:03,980
And, you know, we see I just read about like birds falling from the sky

439
00:36:04,220 --> 00:36:05,860
because of avian flu.

440
00:36:05,860 --> 00:36:09,580
And so we don't necessarily, you know, like have that

441
00:36:09,860 --> 00:36:12,180
that relationship with nature because it's other.

442
00:36:12,580 --> 00:36:16,780
And David Bohm back in 1980 in his book Homeless and the Implicit Order,

443
00:36:16,780 --> 00:36:19,740
he talks a lot about the dangers of fragmentation.

444
00:36:19,740 --> 00:36:22,620
He says what is primarily needed is a growing realization

445
00:36:22,860 --> 00:36:27,180
of the extremely great danger of going on with a fragmentary process of thought.

446
00:36:27,660 --> 00:36:30,940
So our paradigms, our process of thought, then is, you know,

447
00:36:30,940 --> 00:36:34,980
is actually killing us, you know, just to be quite blunt about it.

448
00:36:35,220 --> 00:36:38,660
But there are also many other worldviews.

449
00:36:38,660 --> 00:36:40,980
There's many other paradigms and cosmologies.

450
00:36:40,980 --> 00:36:44,540
Many indigenous groups take a very relational perspective, wisdom,

451
00:36:44,540 --> 00:36:48,580
traditions, et cetera, where they value lived experience and by meaning

452
00:36:48,580 --> 00:36:52,180
subjectivity, consciousness, interbeing and spirituality.

453
00:36:52,500 --> 00:36:55,780
And so this relational perspective, it's it's becoming it's it's

454
00:36:56,740 --> 00:36:58,540
it's there. It's always been there.

455
00:36:58,540 --> 00:37:00,020
But there's we're seeing like that.

456
00:37:00,020 --> 00:37:03,420
We're we're actually each of them has very different views.

457
00:37:03,420 --> 00:37:07,220
And just to illustrate, this is, you know, what I grew up with

458
00:37:07,220 --> 00:37:10,940
when I was studying Earth System Science, you know, the wiring diagram

459
00:37:10,940 --> 00:37:14,420
of how things are related and you see that human activities are just

460
00:37:14,420 --> 00:37:16,060
you know, kind of input and output here.

461
00:37:16,060 --> 00:37:18,020
And soil development is at the center of everything.

462
00:37:18,020 --> 00:37:21,740
But if we take this and put an enlivenment perspective on it,

463
00:37:21,940 --> 00:37:24,100
we start to see that this is all flows.

464
00:37:24,100 --> 00:37:27,180
And so this is Thomas's rendition of this.

465
00:37:27,180 --> 00:37:30,620
But it's it's flows. It's it's energy.

466
00:37:30,620 --> 00:37:33,020
It's things that were not separate from the soil.

467
00:37:33,020 --> 00:37:34,940
We're not separate from ecosystems.

468
00:37:34,940 --> 00:37:37,660
Things that we would have to really start to think very differently

469
00:37:37,660 --> 00:37:39,780
about how we approach this.

470
00:37:39,780 --> 00:37:42,980
And so from a relational perspective, relationships matter.

471
00:37:43,260 --> 00:37:46,660
And I emphasize this in the matter book because it's really, you know,

472
00:37:46,660 --> 00:37:49,700
how things are connected, not just how, but the type

473
00:37:49,700 --> 00:37:52,300
and the quality of the connections are so important.

474
00:37:52,780 --> 00:37:56,060
And this really is like, how do we relate to ourselves, to each other,

475
00:37:56,060 --> 00:37:59,380
to nature, to systems, to the future and so on?

476
00:37:59,380 --> 00:38:03,220
And because we've really adopted a classical relationship

477
00:38:03,220 --> 00:38:06,700
where we see ourselves as separate things is out there.

478
00:38:07,420 --> 00:38:11,340
It's not very surprising that we get the results that we're seeing right now.

479
00:38:11,340 --> 00:38:13,740
So how do we go beyond that?

480
00:38:13,740 --> 00:38:18,460
And in the book, I also focus on, you know, the importance of metaphors,

481
00:38:18,460 --> 00:38:22,660
the importance of language, the importance of meaning and entanglement itself is

482
00:38:23,460 --> 00:38:26,700
in a classical sense, it's just like being like twisted together.

483
00:38:26,700 --> 00:38:31,020
But in a quantum sense, it's a whole like a whole different way

484
00:38:31,020 --> 00:38:33,900
of thinking about reality in a non-local way.

485
00:38:34,260 --> 00:38:40,460
And so it's about correlation or correlation rather than causation or causality.

486
00:38:40,780 --> 00:38:44,540
And some of the people, paraphysicist and feminist philosopher

487
00:38:44,540 --> 00:38:49,380
Karen Barad has really emphasized that, you know, quantum entanglement

488
00:38:49,380 --> 00:38:51,860
is a uniquely quantum mechanical phenomenon.

489
00:38:52,180 --> 00:38:56,580
But it's really there is no classical equivalent to the nature of reality

490
00:38:56,580 --> 00:38:57,820
is entangled.

491
00:38:57,820 --> 00:39:01,100
And social scientists are looking at that through language,

492
00:39:01,100 --> 00:39:04,740
through meaning making, through values, how we are entangled with each other

493
00:39:05,060 --> 00:39:10,020
and especially language as a way to entangle our understanding of meaning making.

494
00:39:10,460 --> 00:39:14,660
And so that then brings me, you know, like, OK, if we understand

495
00:39:14,660 --> 00:39:17,380
these different spheres of transformation, so what?

496
00:39:17,780 --> 00:39:21,100
You know, how do we actually move and use this not just as a framework

497
00:39:21,100 --> 00:39:24,220
of understanding, but as a framework for action?

498
00:39:24,820 --> 00:39:26,860
And I think that's something where, you know, like

499
00:39:26,860 --> 00:39:29,620
we might have the best understanding of why we didn't transform,

500
00:39:29,620 --> 00:39:32,660
but what do we do to do, you know, to do differently?

501
00:39:33,100 --> 00:39:36,700
And that brings me to talk a little bit about fractals or self

502
00:39:36,700 --> 00:39:39,300
similar patterns that repeat at all scales.

503
00:39:40,620 --> 00:39:43,740
But going back to meeting Monica Sharma,

504
00:39:44,060 --> 00:39:47,060
I read an article that she had someone sent me an article

505
00:39:47,060 --> 00:39:48,460
that you should read this, Karen.

506
00:39:48,460 --> 00:39:51,500
OK, sure. And her personal

507
00:39:51,500 --> 00:39:55,180
the planetary transformation article in a magazine called Cosmos.

508
00:39:55,460 --> 00:39:59,220
You know, it was really summarizing her work in decades

509
00:39:59,220 --> 00:40:02,260
at the United Nations, working with HIV, AIDS, et cetera.

510
00:40:02,620 --> 00:40:05,740
And she emphasized that we have the technology and the resources.

511
00:40:05,740 --> 00:40:07,500
So what is missing?

512
00:40:07,500 --> 00:40:09,860
And her answer was wisdom in action.

513
00:40:10,500 --> 00:40:13,100
And I read the article and she talked about wisdom

514
00:40:13,100 --> 00:40:15,660
is sourcing action from the deepest place within ourselves

515
00:40:15,660 --> 00:40:18,460
and generating appropriate action for meeting challenges.

516
00:40:18,980 --> 00:40:22,860
Challenges, evidence indicates that sourcing action for wisdom works.

517
00:40:23,420 --> 00:40:24,660
Well, like, OK, interesting.

518
00:40:24,660 --> 00:40:27,380
So I contacted her and I was like, OK, let's you know, let's talk

519
00:40:27,780 --> 00:40:30,660
and started to work with her on this idea of, you know,

520
00:40:30,660 --> 00:40:34,980
how do we link the person with kind of go away from local to global

521
00:40:34,980 --> 00:40:38,540
or, you know, top down and bottom up and start thinking of ourselves

522
00:40:38,540 --> 00:40:42,500
as these like fractals of change that are creating patterns

523
00:40:42,500 --> 00:40:46,340
that are self similar, regardless of scale, you know, a scale.

524
00:40:46,460 --> 00:40:50,380
So we see fractals, you know, connect them in geometry and algebra.

525
00:40:50,700 --> 00:40:52,780
And you can also see them in nature.

526
00:40:52,780 --> 00:40:58,820
In mathematics, fractals are, you know, they continue forever in nature.

527
00:40:59,220 --> 00:41:02,140
They they're you know, they only they stop at a certain point

528
00:41:02,140 --> 00:41:04,060
to have the biggest leaves in the world.

529
00:41:04,060 --> 00:41:06,460
But the idea that you can have social fractals,

530
00:41:06,460 --> 00:41:10,540
you can create patterns in cities, you can take patterns in the environment

531
00:41:10,540 --> 00:41:14,020
that how we are with each other actually creates new patterns.

532
00:41:14,300 --> 00:41:17,780
So it's a it's a shift in that paradigm to think in different ways.

533
00:41:17,780 --> 00:41:20,460
And in one of his work is really

534
00:41:20,460 --> 00:41:23,220
about basing them in universal values.

535
00:41:23,500 --> 00:41:27,940
And universal values are values that are intrinsic or inherent to everyone's.

536
00:41:28,060 --> 00:41:32,860
Even if they don't recognize equality, but you can't say that I, you know,

537
00:41:33,860 --> 00:41:37,900
equality or dignity is important to me, but it doesn't count for you.

538
00:41:37,940 --> 00:41:39,780
It doesn't count for you. It's all inclusive.

539
00:41:39,780 --> 00:41:43,740
So there are intrinsic characteristics that connect humans and natures

540
00:41:43,740 --> 00:41:45,580
in a coherent, acausal way.

541
00:41:45,580 --> 00:41:48,700
It's very much like I've been looking at the literature on universal values

542
00:41:48,700 --> 00:41:52,300
and we have Schwartz's universal values of people who actually see, you know,

543
00:41:52,380 --> 00:41:56,900
like these values, you know, like the the values that apply,

544
00:41:57,500 --> 00:42:00,300
that they care about everything, but not everyone does.

545
00:42:00,300 --> 00:42:05,060
And in the United Nations language, it really is this acausal space.

546
00:42:05,060 --> 00:42:10,580
And I think it's kind of like part of like that, that recognition of that oneness.

547
00:42:11,020 --> 00:42:16,540
And and the sustainable development goals is that these universal values

548
00:42:16,820 --> 00:42:20,300
enable SDGs to be truly transformative by placing the person

549
00:42:20,300 --> 00:42:22,980
and their inherent dignity at the heart of development efforts,

550
00:42:22,980 --> 00:42:26,300
empowering all people to become active partners in this endeavor.

551
00:42:26,860 --> 00:42:30,060
So with my research, we can try to figure out, like, OK,

552
00:42:30,060 --> 00:42:32,500
how do we actually, you know, actualize this?

553
00:42:32,900 --> 00:42:37,340
And it means then that like that idea of agency, fractal agency,

554
00:42:37,660 --> 00:42:42,260
you enter the sphere through the values and principles that you that are important

555
00:42:42,260 --> 00:42:44,980
for you. And this is where I'm moving from a framework

556
00:42:44,980 --> 00:42:47,380
for understanding into a framework for action.

557
00:42:47,700 --> 00:42:50,540
We start to and this is something we've been doing through some change

558
00:42:50,540 --> 00:42:55,340
we've been doing through, you know, like in work, doing some of the best authors

559
00:42:55,340 --> 00:42:57,980
and the things is like, how do we actually figure out, you know,

560
00:42:57,980 --> 00:43:00,260
what is important to us and all others?

561
00:43:00,660 --> 00:43:03,180
What needs to shift in that political sphere?

562
00:43:03,180 --> 00:43:05,660
And what is it was measurable results that we want to see?

563
00:43:05,660 --> 00:43:09,780
So it's a it's about designing for systems, changing cultural change

564
00:43:09,780 --> 00:43:11,380
based on values.

565
00:43:11,380 --> 00:43:13,660
And it's a little bit like, oh, how does that work?

566
00:43:13,660 --> 00:43:18,420
But it is actually taking concrete actions every day here and now

567
00:43:18,420 --> 00:43:23,140
and now to create these like new patterns that are not scalar.

568
00:43:23,140 --> 00:43:27,460
I think how I am with my family is very much how I am with, you know,

569
00:43:27,460 --> 00:43:31,820
like my colleagues is very much how I am with the best author team,

570
00:43:31,820 --> 00:43:32,700
which is how you like that.

571
00:43:32,700 --> 00:43:35,260
We're always having multiple spheres of influence.

572
00:43:35,260 --> 00:43:38,820
And so if you think of this as a fractal and you think about like everybody

573
00:43:39,060 --> 00:43:43,060
in this room, you know, being able to like aligning as

574
00:43:44,060 --> 00:43:47,540
as as a whole and that everybody else at the university

575
00:43:47,540 --> 00:43:49,980
and everybody else at all universities that, you know, we're

576
00:43:50,220 --> 00:43:53,900
it's not about doing the same thing everywhere as a cookie cutter approach,

577
00:43:54,140 --> 00:43:57,980
but it's in every individual context when we act from values

578
00:43:57,980 --> 00:44:01,740
that apply to the whole and really think about like, you know, again,

579
00:44:01,740 --> 00:44:06,020
you know, equity and justice and fairness and dignity

580
00:44:06,020 --> 00:44:08,660
that we start to actually create different types of patterns.

581
00:44:08,660 --> 00:44:12,420
And this is where I think we you know, I was just at a conference

582
00:44:12,420 --> 00:44:15,780
with the investor community, venture capitalists,

583
00:44:15,780 --> 00:44:19,100
and we did a little workshop with them to really deepen that space.

584
00:44:19,100 --> 00:44:23,420
And it had a phenomenal impact on them feeling like this matters.

585
00:44:23,500 --> 00:44:24,580
I never thought.

586
00:44:24,580 --> 00:44:29,300
And I think that touching that space and I think psychology is really important

587
00:44:29,300 --> 00:44:33,660
here is because climate science is really like going right for cognition

588
00:44:33,660 --> 00:44:34,060
and everything.

589
00:44:34,060 --> 00:44:38,180
But to be you take that full approach, we have to actually start to think about,

590
00:44:38,180 --> 00:44:40,220
you know, how do we show up differently?

591
00:44:40,620 --> 00:44:43,860
And this is, you know, inspired by the powers of 10 framework.

592
00:44:43,860 --> 00:44:49,260
But you can see that the individual, you know, the ten to the zero zero

593
00:44:49,580 --> 00:44:53,700
is related to family and friends and personal networks and communities

594
00:44:53,700 --> 00:44:57,580
and villages and neighborhoods and better communities all the way up to the global

595
00:44:57,780 --> 00:45:02,260
or all homo sapiens, whoever, you know, we are changing the whole every moment.

596
00:45:02,660 --> 00:45:06,900
And so that idea that we are in this kind of spiral fractal is is,

597
00:45:07,180 --> 00:45:10,820
you know, like what we do actually does matter, not just through our actions,

598
00:45:10,820 --> 00:45:13,220
but from the stories we tell through our language, through

599
00:45:14,740 --> 00:45:17,820
I think this gives a very positive way of thinking about it.

600
00:45:17,820 --> 00:45:21,100
But I also recognize that we don't have time for this.

601
00:45:21,100 --> 00:45:23,540
Karen, paradigm shifts will take forever.

602
00:45:23,540 --> 00:45:26,660
And, you know, like we need to actually, you know, we need to do things.

603
00:45:26,660 --> 00:45:29,660
And there's this idea that beliefs, values and worldviews

604
00:45:29,660 --> 00:45:31,620
and paradigms take forever to change.

605
00:45:31,620 --> 00:45:35,220
And, oh, man, it's been like hundreds of years and thousands of years

606
00:45:35,460 --> 00:45:37,020
before it actually changes.

607
00:45:37,020 --> 00:45:39,180
And then people are like, well, it's just going to be structures.

608
00:45:39,180 --> 00:45:42,100
They're going to take decades up to 100 years and things.

609
00:45:42,100 --> 00:45:45,660
But technologies and behaviors, we can just, you know, we can focus on

610
00:45:45,660 --> 00:45:47,980
and switch those in 10 years or 20 years and thing.

611
00:45:47,980 --> 00:45:51,780
And the idea behind here is that these are not separate.

612
00:45:51,780 --> 00:45:55,020
So, you know, when we look at all of them, the outcomes, it's what we do

613
00:45:55,020 --> 00:45:58,060
right here and right now and tomorrow and the next day and the next day.

614
00:45:58,060 --> 00:46:01,260
And it's really like bringing that 2030 agenda,

615
00:46:01,540 --> 00:46:04,540
you know, which is now less than 10 years away, right here and right now.

616
00:46:04,860 --> 00:46:09,620
And putting that into practice and creating different patterns all the time.

617
00:46:09,620 --> 00:46:13,420
And I think that for me, that transformation isn't about just,

618
00:46:13,420 --> 00:46:15,980
you know, like that transformation out there, but it is actually,

619
00:46:16,140 --> 00:46:17,380
you know, challenging ourselves.

620
00:46:17,380 --> 00:46:20,620
How do how do we show up differently?

621
00:46:20,940 --> 00:46:22,980
And that means that, you know, we're always actually,

622
00:46:22,980 --> 00:46:24,500
you know, influencing the future.

623
00:46:24,500 --> 00:46:26,020
We're always having an impact.

624
00:46:26,020 --> 00:46:28,620
We're always mattering in the moment.

625
00:46:29,020 --> 00:46:31,580
And that's a paradigm shift that I think we're, you know,

626
00:46:31,580 --> 00:46:34,500
we're not necessarily, you know, giving young people.

627
00:46:34,500 --> 00:46:37,420
They're not necessarily having this idea of agency

628
00:46:37,660 --> 00:46:41,460
and their own capacity to make a difference in the world.

629
00:46:41,820 --> 00:46:45,780
And for me, it's like if we underestimate our collective capacity

630
00:46:45,780 --> 00:46:48,900
for social change, and, you know, I think quantum social change

631
00:46:48,900 --> 00:46:52,460
really is based on our inherent connections.

632
00:46:52,460 --> 00:46:54,580
It's it's nonlocal, nonlinear.

633
00:46:54,860 --> 00:46:57,900
And it really recognizes that, you know, social change can happen

634
00:46:57,900 --> 00:46:59,100
much faster than we think.

635
00:46:59,100 --> 00:47:03,140
So, you know, at the end of the day, I think that if we want to get to this world,

636
00:47:03,460 --> 00:47:07,100
that a world that functions for all species and all life,

637
00:47:07,420 --> 00:47:11,180
you know, like mattering more than we have to really get it at a deep level

638
00:47:11,180 --> 00:47:14,620
that, you know, I and you, we matter more than we think.

639
00:47:14,940 --> 00:47:18,660
So with that, I'm happy to just take any questions

640
00:47:18,660 --> 00:47:21,420
or open up a discussion for the for like how to get back.

641
00:47:30,100 --> 00:47:34,100
So open the floor up for questions and comments.

642
00:47:36,580 --> 00:47:39,940
When we're talking about change and everything, it was

643
00:47:41,260 --> 00:47:46,260
doing the effort to adapt the change to this, to the environment, to the society.

644
00:47:46,500 --> 00:47:49,140
We have to make society adapt to the change.

645
00:47:51,420 --> 00:47:55,500
It's like like the we have to adapt, make the change,

646
00:47:55,540 --> 00:47:59,740
make the change, adapt the old environment to do on the environment.

647
00:48:00,140 --> 00:48:04,900
But we need to make change the environment to adapt to the change we want to make.

648
00:48:05,300 --> 00:48:09,380
I think I guess if I understand you correct, I would go to the to the latter,

649
00:48:09,380 --> 00:48:12,500
because like Paulo Freire in Pedagogy of the Oppressed,

650
00:48:12,500 --> 00:48:14,740
Warren, you can read it through climate change lenses.

651
00:48:14,740 --> 00:48:18,180
He talks about the well-adapted individual suits the oppressor's needs.

652
00:48:18,180 --> 00:48:19,780
You know, we just adapt and adapt.

653
00:48:19,780 --> 00:48:24,460
And I kind of, you know, I felt this when I was like working in El Salvador.

654
00:48:24,500 --> 00:48:27,300
You can tell the farmer, you need to adapt to one degree warmer world.

655
00:48:27,300 --> 00:48:28,620
No, not to two degree warmer.

656
00:48:28,620 --> 00:48:30,060
Well, no, not to three degree.

657
00:48:30,060 --> 00:48:33,700
And so we want people to be well-adapted without adapting to the very,

658
00:48:33,980 --> 00:48:37,340
you know, challenging those, you know, like why are we changing the climate

659
00:48:37,340 --> 00:48:38,460
at this rate? Who is?

660
00:48:38,460 --> 00:48:41,260
And I coming from Norway, where we're still investing in oil.

661
00:48:41,500 --> 00:48:45,300
Who am I to tell a farmer that they have to adapt or move or things?

662
00:48:45,300 --> 00:48:47,860
So I think that, you know, like it's it's like we aren't separate

663
00:48:47,860 --> 00:48:48,740
from the environment.

664
00:48:48,740 --> 00:48:52,140
So as we adapt, the environment changes, the environment changes us.

665
00:48:52,140 --> 00:48:54,340
So it's not a it's not this separate thing.

666
00:48:54,340 --> 00:48:57,700
But to always think that what does this all mean in practice?

667
00:48:57,700 --> 00:49:01,580
And I think it's that practice of inquiry and asking questions and

668
00:49:02,140 --> 00:49:04,660
it's just going like, wait a minute, you know, what is that?

669
00:49:04,940 --> 00:49:06,420
The truth is.

670
00:49:06,420 --> 00:49:11,500
And yeah, so well-adapted, being too well-adapted can be dangerous.

671
00:49:18,260 --> 00:49:21,260
Yeah, very exciting, very interesting, stimulating.

672
00:49:22,220 --> 00:49:27,660
I read your book and listened to a few of your talks, and it's like,

673
00:49:28,180 --> 00:49:32,660
you know, through Karen Barad and, you know, quantum sort of paradigm shift,

674
00:49:32,660 --> 00:49:37,940
you would say that sometimes a sense that it's almost like

675
00:49:37,940 --> 00:49:40,900
it's like a secular language for speaking about

676
00:49:41,740 --> 00:49:44,780
more spiritual realities that have been talked about by various

677
00:49:44,780 --> 00:49:47,700
Western traditions over the years.

678
00:49:47,740 --> 00:49:50,860
And, you know, then when you show up this sense of this

679
00:49:50,860 --> 00:49:56,460
these nested holographic, miraculous, it really challenges

680
00:49:56,460 --> 00:49:58,300
this question of separation

681
00:49:59,300 --> 00:50:04,180
with skin encapsulated gene producing, you know, our larger

682
00:50:04,180 --> 00:50:09,940
dogmas. And also, I think we have this pairing very strong in psychology

683
00:50:09,940 --> 00:50:13,620
that, you know, that we have this individual sitting in front of us

684
00:50:13,620 --> 00:50:16,740
that has some problem inside their brains.

685
00:50:18,220 --> 00:50:25,500
And that this can be a very, like a view of the individual that can be

686
00:50:25,500 --> 00:50:29,660
really disempowering, because it's like there's something wrong with you.

687
00:50:29,740 --> 00:50:31,940
But actually, we need to see more and more of that.

688
00:50:31,940 --> 00:50:36,300
You know, we have a culture, we have a society that is not really,

689
00:50:36,860 --> 00:50:41,100
you know, let alone sustainable for nature, but it's not really

690
00:50:41,220 --> 00:50:45,140
that sustainable for human hearts, souls, human nervous systems.

691
00:50:46,020 --> 00:50:49,740
And so I think, you know, also for psychologists, future psychologists

692
00:50:49,740 --> 00:50:53,980
and so forth, to really bring that also into the encounter with the

693
00:50:53,980 --> 00:50:59,340
individual, to see that we're also being tremendously impacted by this

694
00:50:59,340 --> 00:51:03,780
collective situation, crisis, kind of transformation, the metamorphosis

695
00:51:03,780 --> 00:51:07,900
that we're going through. And that it could be also, you know,

696
00:51:07,900 --> 00:51:11,900
strengthening the self-efficacy of the individual, you know, contrasting

697
00:51:11,940 --> 00:51:14,620
with others, you know, learn helplessness, right?

698
00:51:14,620 --> 00:51:16,900
Like, who is this atom?

699
00:51:17,220 --> 00:51:17,500
Yeah.

700
00:51:18,740 --> 00:51:23,500
You know, but that actually, as you work on yourself, and you know,

701
00:51:23,500 --> 00:51:27,820
you see the impact that the larger network that you're participating

702
00:51:27,820 --> 00:51:32,260
in, this larger network, this culture has impacted you in this

703
00:51:32,260 --> 00:51:39,340
detrimental way, so you can contribute to larger shift.

704
00:51:39,860 --> 00:51:42,780
That is, you know, like, the old tradition, they talk about love,

705
00:51:43,260 --> 00:51:46,780
compassion, and that this is not just a human emotion inside the brain

706
00:51:46,780 --> 00:51:50,060
or something, it's actually something, it's like a natural force.

707
00:51:51,300 --> 00:51:54,420
Yeah, yeah, no, I very much agree with that. And I think that, you

708
00:51:54,420 --> 00:51:57,860
know, like that relationship, because I was very fascinated by

709
00:51:57,860 --> 00:52:00,780
like reading, you know, Carlo Rovelli's Seven Greek Lessons on

710
00:52:00,780 --> 00:52:03,820
Physics, which is like, you know, a million seller at every airport

711
00:52:03,820 --> 00:52:06,980
and everything, and his last chapter on humans, he pretty much,

712
00:52:07,020 --> 00:52:09,460
you know, and he's written books like, no, it is not what it seems

713
00:52:09,460 --> 00:52:12,860
as the amazing quantum universe and everything, but then it's like

714
00:52:12,900 --> 00:52:15,660
humans are headed for extinction, because we're ignoring climate

715
00:52:15,660 --> 00:52:18,460
change, and no references, not anything. And so I actually like

716
00:52:18,460 --> 00:52:20,660
started this book, I'm like, I'm going to respond to that, because,

717
00:52:20,660 --> 00:52:24,060
you know, there's a social sciences, humanities, we actually, you

718
00:52:24,060 --> 00:52:27,260
know, there's a whole like, it doesn't have to be headed for

719
00:52:27,260 --> 00:52:32,100
extinction, you know, like, now, and, and I think that that doing

720
00:52:32,100 --> 00:52:35,780
it in this, you know, that science itself is telling us what and

721
00:52:35,780 --> 00:52:39,340
I've had the, you know, privilege of with this biodiversity on the

722
00:52:39,340 --> 00:52:43,460
transformative change assessment, it's on the nature panel takes

723
00:52:43,540 --> 00:52:46,260
indigenous and local knowledge very seriously. So we have a lot

724
00:52:46,260 --> 00:52:49,420
of meetings and things and you see, we're actually saying the

725
00:52:49,420 --> 00:52:53,180
same thing in different languages in different ways. But I think

726
00:52:53,180 --> 00:52:57,060
you're exactly right that when we, when we take partial responses,

727
00:52:57,060 --> 00:52:59,980
and when we separate ourselves, you know, like it is where people

728
00:52:59,980 --> 00:53:03,060
with the head, heart, hands, you know, like in a holistic way, you

729
00:53:03,060 --> 00:53:05,500
know, it's just so much more powerful. And I see that every

730
00:53:05,500 --> 00:53:08,700
single day in how people show up differently, you know, like, it

731
00:53:08,700 --> 00:53:12,860
doesn't take a lot to create a, you know, to speak, speak from a

732
00:53:12,860 --> 00:53:16,180
different space and, you know, things. So I, you know, I think

733
00:53:16,180 --> 00:53:19,780
that that unleashing that potential of transformation, you

734
00:53:19,780 --> 00:53:22,260
know, the other definition, it will lead to changes in form,

735
00:53:22,260 --> 00:53:24,900
structure and meeting making in the practical, political and

736
00:53:25,060 --> 00:53:27,820
personal spheres and things, but it has to start somewhere. And,

737
00:53:28,180 --> 00:53:31,460
you know, there's so much, so many people are saying the same

738
00:53:31,460 --> 00:53:34,100
things in so many different ways. And I think I see that, like,

739
00:53:34,340 --> 00:53:37,380
my colleague, Andrea, will be coming in, probably talking

740
00:53:37,380 --> 00:53:39,820
about effective adaptation, things. It's like, it's like,

741
00:53:39,820 --> 00:53:43,300
there's so much on this, and yet the dominant paradigm still is

742
00:53:43,300 --> 00:53:46,180
very, you know, it's a technocratic techno managerial

743
00:53:46,180 --> 00:53:48,740
one that we just need to, you know, very much in that

744
00:53:48,740 --> 00:53:51,460
practical sphere, and it's taking it as a technical problem,

745
00:53:51,660 --> 00:53:54,660
rather than an adaptive challenge where we have to shift.

746
00:53:54,660 --> 00:53:55,020
So,

747
00:53:55,540 --> 00:53:59,220
can I just add one more question? What do you think about, you

748
00:53:59,220 --> 00:54:04,060
know, Gaia hypothesis? You know, like, because, I mean, I

749
00:54:04,060 --> 00:54:08,820
feel like somehow we're still catching up with this tremendous

750
00:54:08,940 --> 00:54:11,700
discovery of the earth from outer space, you know, that

751
00:54:11,700 --> 00:54:16,580
happens in the 1950s, 1960s, you know, and the counterculture

752
00:54:16,580 --> 00:54:22,780
revolution came up with that. We are one community. And like,

753
00:54:22,780 --> 00:54:26,500
this is, and maybe this is a living organism, that we are

754
00:54:26,620 --> 00:54:33,220
somehow, part of its self-regulating process of

755
00:54:33,340 --> 00:54:34,220
transformation.

756
00:54:35,020 --> 00:54:38,340
Yeah, yeah, I did my PhD on atmosphere bias for

757
00:54:38,340 --> 00:54:40,820
interactions between tropical forests and climate change. And

758
00:54:40,820 --> 00:54:43,980
then, you know, I was very much into the James Lovelocks, you

759
00:54:43,980 --> 00:54:46,500
know, these different feedbacks in the Gaia hypothesis. And then

760
00:54:46,500 --> 00:54:48,900
I just kind of parked that all in my Gaia books and everything.

761
00:54:48,900 --> 00:54:51,300
But when I was writing, I looked to Alexander Wendt, the

762
00:54:52,060 --> 00:54:54,940
political scientist who came up with quantum social theory, and

763
00:54:54,940 --> 00:54:57,980
I was like, dear Alex, what does this mean for climate

764
00:54:57,980 --> 00:54:59,740
change? And he's very thoughtful. He was like, I think

765
00:54:59,740 --> 00:55:02,180
what I'm trying to say is like, we are one quantum social

766
00:55:02,180 --> 00:55:05,100
organism. I was like, interesting. And that's what

767
00:55:05,100 --> 00:55:07,580
really started me on this thing. Okay, let's look into that. What

768
00:55:07,580 --> 00:55:10,580
does that mean? What would that look like in practice? And I

769
00:55:10,580 --> 00:55:13,300
think that that idea that we don't, you know, we see

770
00:55:13,300 --> 00:55:15,660
ourselves as separate from nature, and you see it, you

771
00:55:15,660 --> 00:55:18,300
know, like, there's nothing, nothing sacred about like,

772
00:55:18,620 --> 00:55:21,140
raising the Amazon forest. There's nothing, you know, like

773
00:55:21,140 --> 00:55:25,140
we just treat water, we treat ourselves and, and, and the

774
00:55:25,140 --> 00:55:28,260
whole world is, is, and that brings me back to, you know,

775
00:55:28,260 --> 00:55:32,620
like, that self efficacy and the futurist Buckminster Fuller

776
00:55:32,620 --> 00:55:34,820
once said that, you know, the future of the world were up to

777
00:55:34,820 --> 00:55:37,700
me, how would I be? What would I do? And encourage people to

778
00:55:37,700 --> 00:55:39,900
treat their lives as an experiment. And I think that's

779
00:55:39,900 --> 00:55:42,540
where we're all being called for now is to like, okay, what's

780
00:55:42,540 --> 00:55:45,860
the biggest impact I can have in my sphere of influence and

781
00:55:45,860 --> 00:55:49,500
beyond in the next 10 years? And even with something like we

782
00:55:49,620 --> 00:55:53,500
didn't like, oh, not me today. And I don't want to, but then

783
00:55:53,500 --> 00:55:56,140
it's like, no, no, actually, we will be remembered in the

784
00:55:56,140 --> 00:55:58,380
future for what we did today. And I think that's something

785
00:55:58,380 --> 00:56:01,980
that like, and many of the people I know working on these

786
00:56:01,980 --> 00:56:04,460
issues in like, we talked about when we were talking about

787
00:56:04,460 --> 00:56:07,300
climate anxiety before. And I think many people who are

788
00:56:07,300 --> 00:56:11,780
working on this have a deep sense of grief. And I've been

789
00:56:11,780 --> 00:56:14,860
working for decades and just this is not where we want to be

790
00:56:14,900 --> 00:56:22,300
going. I think that shift is, it's already there. And it's

791
00:56:22,300 --> 00:56:23,820
just occupying the paradigm.

792
00:56:29,740 --> 00:56:36,340
I had a question in terms of the choice of words, again. Because

793
00:56:37,100 --> 00:56:40,540
you talk about adaptation and transformation, and to me they

794
00:56:40,540 --> 00:56:44,780
have two quite different connotations. But one thing

795
00:56:44,780 --> 00:56:48,820
that you said, the first question, it's about

796
00:56:48,980 --> 00:56:53,660
adaptation, and the well adapted individual is...

797
00:56:54,020 --> 00:56:56,780
Seeing the professor's needs, the literacy needs or whatever.

798
00:56:56,820 --> 00:57:00,100
I thought that was very interesting. That kind of also

799
00:57:02,260 --> 00:57:05,500
puts into how I maybe thought about adaption myself,

800
00:57:05,820 --> 00:57:12,220
adaptation. And because it sounds kind of weak, in a way.

801
00:57:12,220 --> 00:57:15,900
It's like you're giving up something. Because transformation

802
00:57:16,260 --> 00:57:18,500
sounds a bit more positive. And then if you talk about

803
00:57:18,500 --> 00:57:23,260
resilience, then that is, I associate that a bit more with

804
00:57:23,300 --> 00:57:26,300
resistance to change, but it doesn't necessarily have to be

805
00:57:26,300 --> 00:57:30,260
that way. So I guess my question is, is that something that you

806
00:57:30,260 --> 00:57:33,020
have considered, like the choice of words that you use when you

807
00:57:33,620 --> 00:57:35,740
are discussing this topic?

808
00:57:35,740 --> 00:57:38,540
Yeah, we struggled with that a lot in terms of because

809
00:57:38,540 --> 00:57:40,860
adaptation has always been hijacked by the climate

810
00:57:40,860 --> 00:57:43,580
community of adapting to the impacts. And there's no doubt

811
00:57:43,580 --> 00:57:46,140
that we have to adapt to the impacts. We need to raise

812
00:57:46,620 --> 00:57:50,940
bridges, we need to change... There's so many things. But that

813
00:57:51,060 --> 00:57:55,340
when we start to study the limits to adaptation, including

814
00:57:55,340 --> 00:57:59,540
our own physiological limits, that we cannot be outside when

815
00:58:00,260 --> 00:58:02,900
our wet bulb temperature is above 30, whatever, seven

816
00:58:02,900 --> 00:58:05,820
degrees or 50 degrees or something. There'll be times

817
00:58:05,820 --> 00:58:08,940
when we're still expecting people to go and work on

818
00:58:09,260 --> 00:58:12,820
construction sites when it's 52 degrees or pick strawberries or

819
00:58:12,820 --> 00:58:17,420
whatever, buy fruit for us when it's in that... There are so

820
00:58:17,420 --> 00:58:20,780
many limits to adaptation that the adaptation to climate

821
00:58:20,780 --> 00:58:25,020
change then becomes a yes, and we also need to adapt to the

822
00:58:25,020 --> 00:58:29,500
idea from this bigger species perspective, where we start

823
00:58:29,500 --> 00:58:32,980
to think about, wow, this whole way of organizing society

824
00:58:33,020 --> 00:58:36,180
isn't working for us right now. It's not inclusive, it doesn't

825
00:58:36,180 --> 00:58:39,340
benefit everyone. And I feel that, you know, living in a

826
00:58:39,340 --> 00:58:42,340
country like Norway, that we are very complacent here, that we

827
00:58:42,340 --> 00:58:44,980
just think that like, oh, it's not going to affect us as much

828
00:58:44,980 --> 00:58:48,060
as others and things. But I think we haven't seen... We

829
00:58:48,060 --> 00:58:51,620
haven't seen anything yet with 1.1 degrees. And, you know,

830
00:58:52,380 --> 00:58:55,180
if you look at what the models are predicting for a two degree,

831
00:58:55,260 --> 00:58:58,380
three degree, four degree warmer world, it's like, it's not

832
00:58:58,460 --> 00:59:01,940
going to benefit anyone. So the use of the words and resilience

833
00:59:01,980 --> 00:59:05,100
also gets treated as resilient to what, you know, are we keeping

834
00:59:05,100 --> 00:59:09,140
the capitalist system, you know, or is it at this planetarium

835
00:59:09,140 --> 00:59:13,020
scale that we want resilient for all of life. And so each word

836
00:59:13,020 --> 00:59:16,420
can be interpreted in many different ways. And, you know,

837
00:59:16,420 --> 00:59:19,060
transformation, we are going to be transformed one way or the

838
00:59:19,060 --> 00:59:21,580
other, the climate is transforming us, can we do this

839
00:59:21,580 --> 00:59:24,980
deliberately and consciously, so that we can have a world where

840
00:59:24,980 --> 00:59:29,220
we all thrive. So it's, and that's where my language matters

841
00:59:29,220 --> 00:59:31,940
so much, and words matter, we need to be very precise. So

842
00:59:31,940 --> 00:59:32,460
thank you.

843
00:59:35,020 --> 00:59:39,420
I also have a question regarding words. You matter more than you

844
00:59:39,420 --> 00:59:43,940
think. It is a bit from the individualistic perspective.

845
00:59:45,220 --> 00:59:46,300
We matter more than you think.

846
00:59:46,300 --> 00:59:49,540
Yeah, yeah. And look, I kind of go through that we don't

847
00:59:49,540 --> 00:59:52,300
actually have the language for the I, we, it's a, you know,

848
00:59:52,300 --> 00:59:54,860
like that, that unified place where you and you know, like,

849
00:59:54,860 --> 00:59:58,100
you are not you, you are we and everything we don't. So I just

850
00:59:58,100 --> 01:00:02,020
kind of bracketed the I, we but you know, like, a psychiatrist

851
01:00:02,020 --> 01:00:05,620
Daniel Siegel calls it we, in his recent book, Interconnected,

852
01:00:05,620 --> 01:00:09,580
he's working on the mindful brain, etc. And Tyson

853
01:00:09,780 --> 01:00:14,060
McCortan, an Indigenous from Australia, talks about an us

854
01:00:14,060 --> 01:00:17,540
too, and everything. So our words are very much reflective

855
01:00:17,540 --> 01:00:21,900
of the way we, you know, like, our language reflects our mental

856
01:00:21,900 --> 01:00:24,300
patterns and things. And so yeah, you matter more than you

857
01:00:24,300 --> 01:00:28,220
think is like that. But it's really like talking to you that

858
01:00:28,220 --> 01:00:31,380
you and then to matter is also it's being significant, but it's

859
01:00:31,380 --> 01:00:34,940
also being substantial. So there are many different like angles

860
01:00:34,940 --> 01:00:38,700
of these words. And when you get to like, I and you are not

861
01:00:38,700 --> 01:00:40,900
separate, it's like, oh, I matter more than you think at

862
01:00:40,900 --> 01:00:45,180
all. So I, we matter more than you think. So it goes into that,

863
01:00:45,180 --> 01:00:48,900
you know, like, just in an inquiry into like, what are all

864
01:00:48,900 --> 01:00:53,820
our subject pronouns actually meaning? And yeah, and yeah,

865
01:00:53,820 --> 01:00:58,500
again, like words matter. And I did have it in the original, I

866
01:00:58,500 --> 01:00:59,700
we matter more than you think.

867
01:01:09,740 --> 01:01:13,300
I just have a follow up question to what David was saying. And I

868
01:01:13,300 --> 01:01:17,740
think it's a really interesting speculation, not only from the

869
01:01:17,740 --> 01:01:21,580
perspective of what words are important, but also how

870
01:01:21,580 --> 01:01:25,940
inclusive we want to be in our climate debates. So let's say if

871
01:01:25,940 --> 01:01:28,980
we think about living and working and thinking about

872
01:01:28,980 --> 01:01:33,220
sanitation and mitigation in religious societies, probably

873
01:01:33,220 --> 01:01:38,060
like the pitching words in this way, it matters more. But what

874
01:01:38,060 --> 01:01:40,580
if you think about like, you know, most of the world that's

875
01:01:40,620 --> 01:01:45,820
actually suffering much harsher with climate change, for that

876
01:01:45,820 --> 01:01:49,500
language is not I, it's really very collectivistic, it's very

877
01:01:49,740 --> 01:01:54,180
holistic, it's very inclusive. So I think when like, you know,

878
01:01:54,180 --> 01:01:57,860
we think about developing language, maybe we also need to

879
01:01:57,860 --> 01:02:01,060
be inclusive of the art which is actually being shattered by

880
01:02:01,060 --> 01:02:05,060
climate change at the moment. So I give you just one little

881
01:02:05,060 --> 01:02:08,660
example, we have been working in some of the communities in Kenya

882
01:02:08,660 --> 01:02:12,620
and Pakistan. And it's so interesting, when you look at

883
01:02:12,620 --> 01:02:15,260
the narratives and interviews and everything that we've

884
01:02:15,260 --> 01:02:19,500
passed, right? There are no words like I, or my house was

885
01:02:19,500 --> 01:02:24,260
here, many times, like our house, our community, our

886
01:02:24,260 --> 01:02:28,300
country. So I think it's also like, you know, debate from

887
01:02:28,900 --> 01:02:31,460
top down, like, you know, countries that also have a

888
01:02:31,460 --> 01:02:35,220
huge climate impact, and then also their individualistic

889
01:02:35,220 --> 01:02:40,860
narratives, which essentially become very exclusive. So yeah,

890
01:02:41,260 --> 01:02:43,700
it's just a thought. And what do you think about that?

891
01:02:43,780 --> 01:02:47,060
Yeah, yeah, I think it's in that same essential thing, like the

892
01:02:47,060 --> 01:02:49,820
one that we're the ones who are going to change, you know, we're

893
01:02:49,820 --> 01:02:52,700
the high emitters, we are the ones that are having the biggest

894
01:02:52,700 --> 01:02:57,060
impact. Much of the world has a very little footprint in things

895
01:02:57,060 --> 01:03:01,700
and many of the, like, it's been, it has been colonialism,

896
01:03:01,700 --> 01:03:04,100
it's been extractivism, it's been all these things that are

897
01:03:04,220 --> 01:03:09,340
have disrupted many ways of living and things. So it is

898
01:03:09,340 --> 01:03:13,420
like, like, why? And I think that's one reason why the white

899
01:03:13,420 --> 01:03:16,500
relations, like there's so many communities that are living with

900
01:03:16,540 --> 01:03:20,140
white relations and things, but not on the unmet or not met, you

901
01:03:20,140 --> 01:03:23,500
know, since how do we change that? And how do we language it

902
01:03:23,500 --> 01:03:28,700
for an audience that relates to a separate? And so it goes into

903
01:03:28,700 --> 01:03:32,020
those ideas of like, how do you skillfully and it goes back to

904
01:03:32,020 --> 01:03:35,180
the idea of how do you get people to really have that

905
01:03:35,180 --> 01:03:39,380
experience of nature not being separate? And, but also that

906
01:03:39,500 --> 01:03:43,620
there's a few, you know, what's happening to people in, you

907
01:03:43,620 --> 01:03:46,780
know, that are being displaced because of that. And it's very

908
01:03:46,780 --> 01:03:49,900
frustrating as well, because you know, we just kind of think that

909
01:03:49,900 --> 01:03:51,980
anyone who's experiencing climate change will kind of

910
01:03:51,980 --> 01:03:54,620
forget it. But there's an agnostic adaptation as well,

911
01:03:54,820 --> 01:03:57,060
especially in the United States, where people are, you know,

912
01:03:57,460 --> 01:04:00,740
writing to fund, they want funds for being moved from Staten

913
01:04:00,740 --> 01:04:03,580
Island or from their island off the coast of Virginia or

914
01:04:03,580 --> 01:04:05,580
something like that, but it's not climate change. And so

915
01:04:05,980 --> 01:04:09,580
those ideas of how we make sense of the world and how we

916
01:04:09,580 --> 01:04:11,980
communicate with people who don't share our worldview, who

917
01:04:11,980 --> 01:04:15,060
don't share our understandings, the things that to me in that

918
01:04:15,060 --> 01:04:20,060
political sphere is really challenging. My daughter is

919
01:04:20,060 --> 01:04:22,940
here, and I know that she'll be just in the US and Florida

920
01:04:22,940 --> 01:04:28,780
where climate change is not a big issue. It's like my reality

921
01:04:28,780 --> 01:04:32,340
check, because you tend to think we're moving to Florida.

922
01:04:35,580 --> 01:04:46,180
I'm trying to grapple with the concept of climate change for

923
01:04:46,180 --> 01:04:52,540
a while. I was counting the wrong line. I heard that it was

924
01:04:55,060 --> 01:05:00,620
created by oil companies by like BP Oil or some of them I don't

925
01:05:01,340 --> 01:05:10,700
know which one of them was to sort of individualize the fight

926
01:05:11,300 --> 01:05:17,220
for against climate change. So that you under emphasize the

927
01:05:17,220 --> 01:05:21,580
personal sphere and the practical in the world that the

928
01:05:21,580 --> 01:05:26,420
political is ignored. So how do you sort of grapple with that as

929
01:05:26,900 --> 01:05:33,140
well? Like the double edged swordness of individualizing

930
01:05:33,860 --> 01:05:34,460
climate change?

931
01:05:34,580 --> 01:05:37,700
Absolutely. Yeah. I've been doing this with my classes. And

932
01:05:37,700 --> 01:05:39,660
then, you know, through sea change, we've been doing this

933
01:05:39,660 --> 01:05:42,580
through sea challenges, an experiment with change where you

934
01:05:42,580 --> 01:05:46,660
make one small change, and then look at that as an object. And

935
01:05:46,780 --> 01:05:48,900
the point there isn't to actually reduce your carbon

936
01:05:48,900 --> 01:05:51,020
footprint, because that doesn't matter, you know, but if you

937
01:05:51,020 --> 01:05:52,940
don't eat meat or something, then you have to think, you

938
01:05:52,940 --> 01:05:56,060
know, first, like, we're very practical logistics and habits

939
01:05:56,380 --> 01:05:58,820
like, oh, my God, what am I going to do? What kind of

940
01:05:58,820 --> 01:06:01,780
muckpuck am I going to make this year? Things like that. But

941
01:06:01,780 --> 01:06:05,020
then you also get into the basic social and cultural norms. So

942
01:06:05,020 --> 01:06:07,380
how do people treat you differently? If you can say,

943
01:06:07,380 --> 01:06:09,700
like, I'm sorry, I'm not going to your barbecue, you know, you

944
01:06:09,700 --> 01:06:11,340
bring your own food or something. And you start to

945
01:06:11,340 --> 01:06:14,700
like, Oh, I had one student from Germany who was picking up trash

946
01:06:14,860 --> 01:06:18,060
at the train station, and she said, I was treated like a bad

947
01:06:18,060 --> 01:06:20,820
lady. And I really felt you know, like that, if you get out

948
01:06:20,820 --> 01:06:24,460
of here, I don't need them. And it brings up things. But then

949
01:06:24,460 --> 01:06:26,980
you also start to look at systems and structures. You

950
01:06:26,980 --> 01:06:29,820
know, it's very easy here, you have vegan wraps, how easy is it

951
01:06:29,820 --> 01:06:33,900
to be you know, have a plant based diet here, if you're in

952
01:06:33,900 --> 01:06:37,420
another context, there's nothing there. So you have to be aware

953
01:06:37,420 --> 01:06:41,380
of those, like what needs to be in place for change to happen.

954
01:06:41,580 --> 01:06:44,100
And then in the very personal space, some of our assumptions

955
01:06:44,100 --> 01:06:46,820
come out, like, oh, I remember when we never, you know, we have

956
01:06:46,820 --> 01:06:50,460
a vegan Christmas dinner, and people will people, and it's

957
01:06:50,460 --> 01:06:54,140
often like what happens is the stories through telling it is

958
01:06:54,140 --> 01:06:57,100
the students, what amazed me was that when it's not the finger

959
01:06:57,100 --> 01:06:59,300
pointing, like you should do this, their parents have like,

960
01:06:59,300 --> 01:07:01,940
why, why is food waste a problem? And then they would

961
01:07:01,940 --> 01:07:04,420
start to do the research themselves. And so they could

962
01:07:04,420 --> 01:07:07,780
actually come up and say, why, you know, like, organic drapes

963
01:07:07,780 --> 01:07:11,780
from Chile are worse than apple from Moscow or something like

964
01:07:11,780 --> 01:07:15,060
that. So there's really that much engage with change. And I

965
01:07:15,060 --> 01:07:17,460
think you're very right that we when we limit ourselves for a

966
01:07:17,460 --> 01:07:20,740
carbon footprint, whereas we're still investing in oil, we're

967
01:07:20,740 --> 01:07:24,420
still organizing our society around fossil fuels, it is very

968
01:07:24,420 --> 01:07:27,060
and that goes into, you know, like flight shaming and things

969
01:07:27,060 --> 01:07:29,660
and stuff. Oh, my gosh, I should never move. I shouldn't breathe.

970
01:07:29,660 --> 01:07:32,380
I shouldn't have a pet, everything. But then it's like,

971
01:07:32,660 --> 01:07:35,860
where is you know, how do we have gigatons of influence? And

972
01:07:35,860 --> 01:07:40,260
I think that's where, you know, it's to get to that both end

973
01:07:40,260 --> 01:07:43,620
where I can have to minimize my carbon footprint as much as I

974
01:07:43,620 --> 01:07:48,260
can, or by use flows by, you know, things to fence them, but

975
01:07:48,260 --> 01:07:52,060
also how do we have the biggest impact? So I think being aware

976
01:07:52,060 --> 01:07:54,620
of that is important, but not to dismiss it, because you do have

977
01:07:54,620 --> 01:07:57,380
an impact among your friends, your family, or, and as the

978
01:07:57,380 --> 01:08:01,980
demand for, you know, trains and, you know, plant based

979
01:08:01,980 --> 01:08:05,060
science and things grows, it does have a systemic effect. So

980
01:08:05,060 --> 01:08:08,100
it's not like, I think just moving away from the either or

981
01:08:08,300 --> 01:08:11,700
thing, but also calling out the being very aware of when

982
01:08:11,700 --> 01:08:15,460
someone just forces being used to perpetuate business as usual,

983
01:08:15,460 --> 01:08:16,820
that shifting things.

984
01:08:20,860 --> 01:08:21,860
Other questions?

985
01:08:29,100 --> 01:08:35,060
I wonder what you think about the opposites, you know, the

986
01:08:35,060 --> 01:08:38,540
forces that go against they also have practicals.

987
01:08:41,580 --> 01:08:43,940
I think those forces create fragments, they might create a

988
01:08:43,940 --> 01:08:47,140
fractal like, you know, like, we're so good, we have electric

989
01:08:47,140 --> 01:08:50,380
cars and all this, but at some point, we're going for oil. And

990
01:08:50,380 --> 01:08:53,420
that is actually not creating a fractal in the universe, it kind

991
01:08:53,420 --> 01:08:57,300
of divides us from the countries that so I think there's a lot of

992
01:08:57,500 --> 01:09:00,020
it's not to be confused with, you know, like these kind of

993
01:09:00,020 --> 01:09:02,780
like, smart cities and all these things where people are putting

994
01:09:02,780 --> 01:09:06,940
their, you know, their, their cookie cutter things on

995
01:09:06,980 --> 01:09:10,380
Starbucks, and, you know, like, recreating these things, but,

996
01:09:10,540 --> 01:09:15,020
but I think that, like, we can convince ourselves, this is a

997
01:09:15,020 --> 01:09:17,340
fractal and everything like that. But the minute we exclude

998
01:09:17,340 --> 01:09:20,380
other people from it, when you see that in so many cases,

999
01:09:20,380 --> 01:09:24,180
that's, we're working for, you know, like, women's rights, but

1000
01:09:24,180 --> 01:09:27,460
not indigenous rights, or, you know, the intersectionality to

1001
01:09:27,460 --> 01:09:31,060
this. And so to get a world that works for everybody is going to

1002
01:09:31,060 --> 01:09:34,260
take, like, I think that coherence and the integrity of

1003
01:09:34,260 --> 01:09:38,140
fractals, rather than things that look kind of nice and

1004
01:09:38,140 --> 01:09:41,100
fragmented at some point. And that's where, going back to

1005
01:09:41,100 --> 01:09:43,700
David Bowens, it's fragmented thinking, but also, and it's,

1006
01:09:43,700 --> 01:09:45,820
you know, I can say all this, but it's really hard in practice,

1007
01:09:46,380 --> 01:09:48,260
you know, like, because we always just go, who are these

1008
01:09:48,260 --> 01:09:50,940
people? Where'd they come? You know, like, and, you know, that

1009
01:09:50,940 --> 01:09:54,460
urgency that we feel is, you know, just like shake up

1010
01:09:54,460 --> 01:09:59,700
everything. But, um, but I think that that, I think, it's a good,

1011
01:09:59,740 --> 01:10:03,660
a really good, I think, something to maybe illustrate in

1012
01:10:04,660 --> 01:10:08,860
future research, you know, that fragments and fractals.

1013
01:10:10,780 --> 01:10:13,460
Because fragments, fractals are beautiful, fragments are not.

1014
01:10:17,380 --> 01:10:24,180
I just, I, because you talk about universal values. And

1015
01:10:24,980 --> 01:10:29,820
that's, to me, that's quite new. I don't, I didn't quite catch

1016
01:10:29,860 --> 01:10:33,660
that. And it seems like you had two different kinds of

1017
01:10:34,260 --> 01:10:37,420
definitions of it, descriptions of it.

1018
01:10:39,300 --> 01:10:41,780
Yeah, that's something that I was in my research group, we've

1019
01:10:41,780 --> 01:10:43,940
been having a lot of trouble talking about universal values,

1020
01:10:43,940 --> 01:10:46,780
because from a, like, from the values perspective, it's like

1021
01:10:46,780 --> 01:10:49,100
universal values are one, you know, like, when you actually

1022
01:10:49,100 --> 01:10:51,820
care about what's good for everyone, but not everyone has

1023
01:10:51,820 --> 01:10:55,660
that. And I think in Monica's, Sharma's approach, and maybe

1024
01:10:55,660 --> 01:10:58,500
from the UN, you know, the Universal Declaration of Human

1025
01:10:58,500 --> 01:11:01,060
Rights, and things like that, it does not say that everybody

1026
01:11:01,180 --> 01:11:04,460
is, has, you know, the right to, you know, so that we all have an

1027
01:11:04,460 --> 01:11:08,020
inherent right to freedom, it's intrinsic in us, and equity is

1028
01:11:08,180 --> 01:11:11,260
intrinsic to all of us, that we are kind of wired for that, for

1029
01:11:11,260 --> 01:11:14,900
equity, and everything, and that you can't have an equal world

1030
01:11:14,900 --> 01:11:17,980
when, I just said, including matters of this half of the

1031
01:11:17,980 --> 01:11:20,980
world, but not that half of the world, or this generation, but

1032
01:11:20,980 --> 01:11:24,140
not the future, and things. And so it is that, you know, like,

1033
01:11:24,180 --> 01:11:27,780
I think, I'm not sure if universal values is the best,

1034
01:11:28,340 --> 01:11:31,300
like, language for it, say, that, you know, it's that

1035
01:11:31,300 --> 01:11:38,220
inherent, innate oneness that is, you know, as that a causal

1036
01:11:38,220 --> 01:11:42,100
space that, you know, if we have that, like, there's something

1037
01:11:42,100 --> 01:11:45,540
that we kind of know that we are connected from many different

1038
01:11:45,540 --> 01:11:49,540
religious traditions and experiential types of things,

1039
01:11:49,540 --> 01:11:52,620
but, but it's a really good question. And that's where, you

1040
01:11:52,620 --> 01:11:55,380
know, I was expecting that the viewers would be like, oh, you

1041
01:11:55,380 --> 01:11:59,140
can't say this, but we didn't get that. We get reviewers in

1042
01:11:59,140 --> 01:12:03,740
these days in general. So yeah.

1043
01:12:05,020 --> 01:12:09,980
So you've been talking about the politics is like the kind of

1044
01:12:11,460 --> 01:12:14,220
thing that's above the practical, and we're thinking

1045
01:12:14,220 --> 01:12:18,900
about leverage points, and about these practicals. And what did

1046
01:12:18,900 --> 01:12:23,260
you say? If we are thinking political, then we usually like

1047
01:12:23,300 --> 01:12:27,260
thinking on a national level, and on, I don't know, when

1048
01:12:27,260 --> 01:12:30,180
politics are implemented, it's super hard to implement that

1049
01:12:30,180 --> 01:12:33,940
specifically. But we have to think that different areas are

1050
01:12:33,940 --> 01:12:36,940
differently affected, and that some mechanism would work, for

1051
01:12:36,940 --> 01:12:39,380
example, in cities, but they definitely will not work in

1052
01:12:39,380 --> 01:12:45,020
other areas. And if you would make like more individualistic

1053
01:12:45,020 --> 01:12:50,260
or more pointed politics, that would also kind of like maybe

1054
01:12:50,260 --> 01:12:54,100
need to more fracturing or to more disengagement between

1055
01:12:54,100 --> 01:12:57,300
different areas. So to more in and out groups, or to more like

1056
01:12:57,300 --> 01:12:59,780
different groupings. And what do you think about that when we

1057
01:12:59,780 --> 01:13:01,700
talk about that political?

1058
01:13:03,060 --> 01:13:05,220
I think when I think of the political, it's not just like

1059
01:13:05,220 --> 01:13:07,940
the voting and things like that. And it is on that how we

1060
01:13:07,940 --> 01:13:12,220
organize society, who is included, who is excluded. And

1061
01:13:12,780 --> 01:13:15,940
the political could be who gets to eat first, when there's a

1062
01:13:16,180 --> 01:13:18,940
food shortage or something like that. Is it women and children

1063
01:13:19,420 --> 01:13:23,260
excluded or things? So I think it's very, and I think what I

1064
01:13:23,260 --> 01:13:26,260
like about the quantum social theory is that it's very

1065
01:13:26,260 --> 01:13:29,380
context specific. And I thought also, it's like, you know,

1066
01:13:29,380 --> 01:13:31,540
like practicals are always going to be different. So it's going

1067
01:13:31,540 --> 01:13:34,660
to look different in a community from the Amazon, from a

1068
01:13:34,700 --> 01:13:37,380
community on the west coast of Norway, everything. But when we

1069
01:13:37,380 --> 01:13:42,060
align with certain volumes, then you would question, like,

1070
01:13:42,060 --> 01:13:44,580
who's included, who's not included, and why I think

1071
01:13:44,580 --> 01:13:48,420
opening up that inquiry, rather than telling people, but it's

1072
01:13:48,420 --> 01:13:51,580
very easy for me to go and judge everyone else. But you can

1073
01:13:51,580 --> 01:13:55,820
actually, why is not included? Why isn't that it's kind of

1074
01:13:55,820 --> 01:13:59,220
like opening up that space for thinking differently about

1075
01:13:59,220 --> 01:14:02,860
things. But, but I feel like the messiness of it, I think, is

1076
01:14:02,860 --> 01:14:06,140
inherent in that question of just like that we are wires to,

1077
01:14:06,500 --> 01:14:10,300
you know, to be tried. But we, in times of crisis, we shrink

1078
01:14:10,300 --> 01:14:12,420
or we grow. And right now, many people are just really

1079
01:14:12,420 --> 01:14:17,100
shrinking, excluding anything from everyone. That's, yeah,

1080
01:14:17,100 --> 01:14:21,620
that's, that's that deep challenge that we're facing. How

1081
01:14:21,620 --> 01:14:25,060
do we move forward in, you know, we've, again, we haven't seen

1082
01:14:25,060 --> 01:14:28,580
anything yet in terms of climate impacts, more to come over the

1083
01:14:28,580 --> 01:14:31,340
next decades, regardless of what we do for mitigation right now,

1084
01:14:31,340 --> 01:14:34,700
just because so much heat is in the ocean, so much, you know,

1085
01:14:34,700 --> 01:14:38,140
this is gonna, it's, you know, it's kind of like baked into the

1086
01:14:38,140 --> 01:14:43,660
system. So really, we're in for this long game. And to be able to

1087
01:14:43,660 --> 01:14:47,500
do that, we're going to have to be, you know, there's nothing

1088
01:14:47,500 --> 01:14:50,100
like magical about what's going to happen, but it is like

1089
01:14:50,100 --> 01:14:53,060
happening. But there are also millions of people who are

1090
01:14:53,060 --> 01:14:57,460
working from this in different ways and open to that. And I

1091
01:14:57,460 --> 01:14:59,140
didn't add this, you know, that, you know, when you look at

1092
01:14:59,140 --> 01:15:03,340
social change, it doesn't take 51%, 99%. It's really, you know,

1093
01:15:03,340 --> 01:15:07,420
it's a nonlinear process. And they say, 10%, 12%, you know,

1094
01:15:07,420 --> 01:15:10,940
15% of the, you know, the critical mass studies, very

1095
01:15:10,940 --> 01:15:13,460
context specific, but they just show that we don't need

1096
01:15:13,460 --> 01:15:16,340
everybody to change because we need, you know, some people like

1097
01:15:16,340 --> 01:15:19,380
just, you know, studying on beliefs, saying it's about 10%

1098
01:15:19,380 --> 01:15:21,540
of people who strongly believe, and that can go further, you

1099
01:15:21,540 --> 01:15:24,220
know, it can be a tea party or a QAlong person, and you can see

1100
01:15:24,220 --> 01:15:27,500
that that can have a big impact too. So how do we actually get

1101
01:15:27,500 --> 01:15:31,100
the beliefs that are, or you know, like, get that social

1102
01:15:31,140 --> 01:15:35,260
critical mass that actually does care about the whole species?

1103
01:15:38,020 --> 01:15:40,300
I'll try to get this off my watch a little bit, but the

1104
01:15:40,300 --> 01:15:47,420
people who are postpartum who have many, many questions later

1105
01:15:47,580 --> 01:15:49,900
in the session, we will be

1106
01:15:54,100 --> 01:15:59,540
conditioning how they feel and how you actually look at our

1107
01:15:59,860 --> 01:16:04,380
world, who feels good in the society. So I encourage you all

1108
01:16:04,380 --> 01:16:06,420
you mentioned about how do we, at the heart of what we're

1109
01:16:06,420 --> 01:16:21,300
doing, we probably should try to extend each other's

1110
01:16:51,540 --> 01:16:52,460
wisdom at this point in time.

1111
01:16:52,460 --> 01:16:56,880
So many good reasons for tr Jill to answer that question.

1112
01:16:56,920 --> 01:17:00,980
And for us, to try our hardest to engage people at the most